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The 
Chronicle of Philanthropy

Marketing Nonprofit Causes

Tuesday, May 20, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time

Throughout much of the 20th century, charities and businesses relied on "interruption marketing" to spread their messages. With few ways to reach donors, supporters, and consumers, organizations found that the best methods for spreading their messages were direct mail, telemarketing, and television and radio commercials. The goal was to blanket as many people as possible with a message — and hope that enough of them were wiling to donate or buy to support the cost.

That approach, however, has changed. Because of advances in technology and the growing number of information sources, interruption marketing isn't as effective as it once was. Some experts, in fact, believe charities and companies are more likely to see results if they get permission to market to potential donors and customers.

That permission comes in various forms, but it is most likely to be successful when an organization is able to make a deep emotional connection with people who are willing to spread its message for them. They must stand out and deliver results in ways that make potential donors and customers want to hear their message, experts say.

How can your charity make these connections? What can you do to help your organization stand out from the masses and compel others to spread your message for you? Join the marketing and communications expert Seth Godin to discuss these questions and whatever else you want to learn about marketing for charities.

The Guest

Seth Godin is a best-selling author, entrepreneur, and speaker who is considered one of the nation's foremost experts on marketing in the digital age. He has written 10 books, including The Dip, Meatball Sundae, Permission Marketing, and Purple Cow.

Mr. Godin was founder and chief executive of the direct-marketing company Yoyodyne, which Yahoo acquired in 1998. He is a contributing editor at Fast Company magazine and the author of the popular marketing blog "Seth Godin's Blog." http://sethgodin.typepad.com/

Godin is also the founder of squidoo.com, a user-generated website designed to raise money for non-profits. It's now one of the 300 most popular websites in the USA and the site has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for causes around the world. Nonprofits can learn more here: http://www.squidoo.com/pages/nonprofitpartners



A transcript of the chat follows.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Welcome to today's live discussion on marketing nonprofit causes. We're pleased to welcome Seth Godin as our expert guest. Mr. Godin, as many know, is an author, speaker, and blogger on the topic of marketing -- and he has a deep interest in helping charities become more effective in spreading their message. We have a lot of great questions already lined up for Mr. Godin, so let's get started.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    To get your question into the mix, please click on the "ask a question" link on this page and fire away.

Question from Yvonne S. Sparks:
    What are the three biggest mistakes charities make in marketing besides not doing it?

Seth Godin:
    Marketing doesn’t equal advertising. Marketing is the act of interacting with people and the creation of products (or in your case services) that people choose to talk about. The biggest mistake non profits make is that they’re so busy not making mistakes they end up being boring. Boring and selfish and self-absorbed, all while they’re working so hard to make the world better. It’s ironic, but true. Kiva.org works primarily because it’s not boring. They make it easy to talk about what they do, and people choose to do so. Thus, the idea spreads.

Question from Ken D. Grunke, Pillars:
    Hi Seth. Would you share your suggestions for how nonprofits should approach the social networking for the first time? I have heard you should be accessing multiple social networking sites and then I have heard that you should only be concentrating on one.

Seth Godin:
    The networks are irrelevant. What’s relevant is the network. Who, not how many. Who, not where.

If your organization can only successfully focus on one thing at a time, then do that. But most urgently, make the relationships you build worthwhile. You don’t need 1000 shallow relationships, you don’t need a long list of friends. What you need is deep relationships, people willing to mortgage their house to support you, willing to host a party to support you, willing to devote a vacation to support you. That’s not about volume, nor is it about the site. It’s about how you build relationships that matter.

Question from Edith Asibey, Communication and Advocacy Consultant:
    The world has just witnessed two natural disasters in Myanmar and in China. Immediately after, my Inbox was full with emails from relief organizations. I didn't know which one to choose to make a donation (the first email I got? The one with the better narrative?)What is your advice to these orgs on how to best target its supporters while not overwhelming them?

Seth Godin:
    Targeting is an unfortunate term, because that’s a hunting term, and the real goal needs to be farming and collaboration. People want to be part of a dialogue, not yelled at or even talked at.

The opportunity is to lead a tribe, and to do that you need to engage people and also to connect them with each other. I guess the short version is: talk to people the way you’d like to be talked to.

Question from Ken D. Grunke, Pillars:
    Hi Seth. Do you feel that Podcasting is a technology that nonprofits should consider taking advantage of in order to communicate their mission? If so, is there a recommended approach to integrating this into your marketing strategy? Thanks!

Seth Godin:
    Podcasting is a brilliant way to deeply connect to your existing fan base. Your tribe, if they are technical and committed, will spend hours a week listening to you and your staff and your stories.

It’s a horrible way, on the other hand, to do outreach. People who aren’t already in your tribe are unlikely to seek out and listen to a podcast.

Question from Ken D. Grunke, Pillars:
    Hi again Seth. My question is what are your thoughts on marketing through cell phones? For example, creating a sense of urgency through text messaging? Thanks!

Seth Godin:
    The ultimate spam is cell phone spam. If you send me an unanticipated, impersonal, irrelevant ad on my cell phone, I will hate you forever. On the other hand, if I sign up, if I raise my hand, to hear from you with alerts, then it’s hugely effective.

You have to be vigilant that your team doesn’t cross the line. Just because it’s important to them doesn’t mean it’s important to me!

Question from Yvonne S. Sparks:
    What are the most persuasive arguments to charities/nonprofits to move them to take action on marketing? How do you illustrate the value, ROI?

Seth Godin:
    All you do is marketing. You market to the people you serve. (getting people to take their TB meds is marketing). You market to the people who fund you. And you market to the people you need to hire or get approvals from. In fact, if you were great at marketing, everything in your organization would change. Once non profits realize that they are marketers, not bureaucrats or truck drivers or procurement agencies, everything changes.

Question from Jeff, via Philanthropy Today:
    How do you think emotional marketing by non-profits compares to campaigns that are more focused on performance capabilities and demonstrable impact?

Seth Godin:
    Marketing is about storytelling. And the thing is, different people need to hear different stories. Some people respond to a cold hard number (like the Gates Foundation). Others want to see the happy kid with braces. The challenge is in telling the right story to the right people in the right way at the right time.

Question from Gail - Fair Housing Center:
    What's the best way to find a professional, reasonably priced firm to assist with marketing in the 21st century.

Seth Godin:
    You’d be amazed at how many supertalented freelancers are out there (with blogs or on craigslist). Where they fall apart is in working with your bureaucracy, in jumping through your hoops, in getting from their idea to your implementation. My argument is that you need to get better at that, instead of hiring from outside. The ideas are easy, the implementation is up to you.

Question from The Baptist Home:
    The Baptist Home is a Continuum of Care Retirement Ministry offering services from Independent Living to Skilled Nursing Care on three campuses. Although located in Missouri, The Baptist Home has a global interest in easing the burdens of aging humanity by participating in several beyond our borders projects. How do we develop potential donors among the Boomers, 13th Generation, and Millenials to invest in our mission.

Seth Godin:
    The basics: make big promises, deliver. Tell stories people want to hear. Create a service worth talking about. Make it easy for others to spread the word. Get permission from people to follow up and then repeat! The basics are what most organizations are missing. Obsessing about this is far more effective than managing the latest fad.

Question from Lyn Watner, International Center for Research on Women:
    Our organization does empirical reserach in India, Africa and Southeast Asia by gathering usable data obtain from programs we have created to find out about domestic violence, HIV/AIDS, stigma and gender, property rights etc. So we do not have a direct service to market. What we do have is outcomes and impact. What is the most efficient way to market ICRW especially when it comes to the annual fund appeal? Thank you for your assitance. lmw

Seth Godin:
    I think you have something quite vivid to market. You have the truth. You have useful levers. You have insights. Tell that story to the people who like stories like that (like Gates) and resist the temptation to do retail philanthropic marketing, because the Oprah show and magazines and such don’t want to hear the story you have to tell. Different stories for different people.

Question from Lauren Romero, Philanthrobrand LLC, idea person, helper:
    As popular as cause marketing has become, it's not surprising that the boom is accompanied by a threat of consumer burnout and cynicism, that behavior by "bad" campaigns will taint the intentions and performance of the good ones.

What are your specific suggestions for ensuring authentic, deep, and enduring cause marketing and co-branding campaigns?

What do you make of some of the more recent ones prominent out there? Tampax (P &G), Amex RED, the OnE Campaign, etc.?

Seth Godin:
    The amount of money and attention the big marketers have is HUGE. Don’t underestimate it. People like you and me are burned out, but there’s a lot of people out there. The real challenge is that there are very few big campaigns and tons of needy causes. I don’t think the answer is to wait for your turn on the magic carousel. Instead, I’d focus on building a virus, spreading an idea, earning permission one person at at time. In my opinion, your cause is too important to be left hanging in the wind by a brand manager who’s focusing on profit per sku.

Question from Lauren Romero, Philanthrobrand LLC:
    Last one: As ubiquitous as the "green" and world crisis causes have become (and I do believe they are critically important and must be addressed by us rich folks in the developed world), how can smaller and local nonprofits best position themselves and avail themselves of the cobranding and cause marketing resources of their local business peers?

Dollar Movie Reviewer blog has some great ideas along these lines...

I'm looking forward to this discussion. thanks for doing it, Seth and others.

Seth Godin:
    I’m sounding like a broken record, and I apologize. Every person here is doing super work, important work and work we can’t wait for. The fewer middlemen in between your work and the people or organizations that can fund it, the better. You need the freedom to live your story, to be who you say you’re going to be, instead of tailoring your story to help the fad of the moment.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Keep your great questions coming. Hit the "ask a question" link to offer your thoughts on what you've read so far -- or to ask Seth a question.

Question from Caroline Waxler, MainStreet.com:
    How can charities better drum up awareness for charity auctions in order to raise money?

Seth Godin:
    I have a blog post about this: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/05/marketing-the-c.html

Question from Sue from Boston:
    I am especially interested in issues of permission-based marketing to seniors over the age of 65. Is there evidence that offering a large type option on a web site does increase conversion rate, or is that something we just assume based on anecdotes? Any other special tactics for reaching those in the older generation? Thanks for any thoughts you have on this, Seth.

Seth Godin:
    If you're not changing and testing your landing pages daily, you're wasting valuable time and money. If you think large type might work, try it! Try everything, test and measure. The new dynamic of the web is that every interaction is a private one, which means every interaction is testable.

Question from Lauren Romero, Philanthrobrand LLC, fp/nfp brand partnership facilitator:
    One of the most cumbersome barriers to "microphilanthropy" -- consumers actively supporting causes through their brand spending choices -- is a pervasive lack of transparency about exactly how much and how their spend translates to serving the claimed nonprofit mission and clients. What suggestions do you/we have to solving this? It goes far beyond the financials addressed via CharityNavigator, and more to transparent information about resource chains of custody and proportional uses. Givewell.org is only focused on a few nonprofits, and there is really nothing out there deconstructing co-branding programs like those so popular with Habitat and SGKomen Breast Cancer Foundation. Authenticity promotes trust, and transparency is the means through which philanthroconsumers are able to evaluate authenticity. Any ideas?

Seth Godin:
    This isn't likely to work any time soon because the clearinghouses can't get traction, can't become ubiquitous and most people don't care a bit. They don't WANT to care. They want the story they tell themselves ("oh, I'm helping") they don't want to know that those organic strawberries burned a barrel of oil to get here.

The only response as we muddle through is to build the most trusted brand you can, and to live as if people are watching, because sooner or later, they are.

Question from Redante, small advocacy startup:
    Dear Mr. Godin Any books or resources you can recommend for a small startup with minimal funding that sorely needs a strategic communications plan? Resources that focus on the how-tos of legislative work in Washington DC appealing to House and Senate members (and their constituents) would be highly appreciated.

Seth Godin:
    My ebook the Boostrapper's Bible is free. It's at squidoo.com/seth. I think most non profits are bootstrappers and should act that way!

Question from Ron, hospital foundation:
    Does a charity's use of Internet tracking capabilities to determine who opens an email hold any promise for marketing charitable issues?

Seth Godin:
    If someone opens your email, they are precious. Don't waste them! Cherish them.

Just that insight is worth a lot. Remember, it's like dating. Once a guy says yes, he'll have dinner with you, he's worth a thousand times more than that guy who ignored you.

Question from Julie Whitmer, American Red Cross:
    What is a good case study from which other marketers can learn?

Seth Godin:
    I've got 2000 of them on my blog. And it's free. Type 'seth' into google.

the hard part isn't learning. It's doing. Go do it. Try.

The red cross is particularly stuck at this. You need to try more, to interact more, and to be far less corporate. The Meatball Sundae is mixing the momentum that got you here (the last 100 years) with a bureaucratic corporate mindset and the new ways of the internet. Uh oh.

Question from Peter Panepento, Moderator:
    Hi Seth: It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how an established organization that is set in its ways can change its culture to be able to embrace some of the approaches you recommend? Is it possible for a well-established, old-school charity to become a forward-thinking organization? How does that happen in real life?

Seth Godin:
    When an industrial revolution happens, organizations almost never make the jump. It takes alacrity and dedication and guts. The best way to make it happen is to let people near the street make their own choices and support them. Which is difficult!

Question from Gabriela Fitz, IssueLab:
    What can you suggest about marketing "causes" that aren't particularly sexy or seemingly urgent, such as libraries, or infrastructure?

Seth Godin:
    Make them sexy! Why on earth would someone support something that they think is boring when something that interests/excites them more is available? They won't.

I think making a road sexy isn't so hard. Or a library. The key is to focus on the BENEFIT, not the tool.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Seth is a fast typist, so we have plenty of time for more questions. Please get them in the mix by clicking on the "ask a question" link on this page. Thanks.

Question from Josh Kittner, Red Cross:
    Can you name a charity that is successfully using marketing techniques?

Seth Godin:
    kiva.org roomtoread.org the fellows program at acumenfund.org

Question from Deborah Martin, San Antonio College (an Alamo Community College):
    Following up on the "how to approach social networking for the first time" question... I understand your analogy that quality is better than quantity, but how do we determine which one to start with? How do we start?

Seth Godin:
    Just start. These are people. Engage them. If you can't turn five people into raving fans, into fanatics, into sneezers, why will you be able to impact 5,000? You won't. One person at a time. The old fashioned way, just online.

Question from Ashley, Large social-service nonprofit:
    We literally have no dollars set aside for radio/tv/print advertising - We simply purchase these when the money appears from a surplus. How do marketing & development professionals approach the board/executive staff about the importance of a strategic marketing plan and assigning actual dollars to it?

Seth Godin:
    Oh my!

this is a horrible strategy. You'd get more results if you lit the money on fire for the pr value.

you should do no advertising (none!) unless it pays for itself. And if it pays for itself, you should do an infinite amount! Right?

Marketing is not advertising! Marketing is what you do and how you talk about it. If you do work worth talking about, word will spread. If word spreads, you get donations.

Question from Kivi, Nonprofit Marketing Guide:
    Which nonprofits do you think are doing the most interesting marketing work right now and why?

Seth Godin:
    I just answered that a few queries up...

Question from Ashley. Large social-service nonprofit:
    Our agency has 22 programs, serving newborns to the elderly and everyone in between. We have decided to focus our marketing efforts on the strongest three programs next year to ensure their continued strength and to help support the other programs. Good or bad decision?

Seth Godin:
    In the Dip, I talk about this, about being the best in the world at what you do. Your approach is brilliant. If you become the go to (the habitat for humanity of your space, the roomtoread of your space) then you win over and over again. If you are third best at ten things, you never win.

Question from Alison, large education nonprofit:
    Hi - Any suggestions for an Annual Report as a piece of the marketing picture? What's a must-do? What mistakes to be avoided?

Seth Godin:
    I would make your annual report boring and cheap and post it online. Then I'd create a storytelling document that is aimed at the vernacular of the people you need to read it. Turn it into a pdf and a piece that's easy to share. Test it and make it spread. No need to conflate the two.

Question from Peter Panepento, Moderator:
    Hi Seth, you've mentioned Kiva on a couple of occasions thus far. Can you articulate what elements make Kiva a success?

Seth Godin:
    Kiva grows by connecting people in a way that online folks find remarkable. So they blog about it and talk about it and bring in others.

Meanwhile, those benefiting from Kiva's connection also talk about it. So they bring in new benefactors.

Since all Kiva does is connect the two, they scale and scale and scale.

It's so simple. That's why I talk about it a lot. If someone talks about you, what do they say?

Question from Kathryn Brown, The Conservation Fund:
    Charities often lack real data about their donors, partners and public supporters. Without a big budget or staff, how can we figure out who gives to us, why they give, and how to appeal to them? Essentially, How do we do our own market research on a shoe-string?

Seth Godin:
    I think you need to ask yourself why you want the data? What would you do with it? What are the questions you're trying to answer? If you know the question and you're really and truly willing to let the data answer it, you'll be 90% of the way there.

Question from Kivi, Nonprofit Marketing Guide:
    What are some of your favorite OFFLINE tactics for small nonprofits that are marketing in a fairly small area geographically (like a single county)?

Seth Godin:
    Answer your phone. Visit with people. Talk to them. Write hand written letters. Do retail marketing with wholesale people like foundations. Personalize everything, don't depersonalize anything.

Question from Peter Panepento:
    A lot of charities provide services that are similar to other charities. Every community, for example, has a food pantry, a United Way, a slew of churches. How can a group like this legitimately stand out and be something special?

Seth Godin:
    Because it's not the aid they give, it's the way they do it, the story they tell and the way it makes the donor feel.

Does the church with the food bank also have a chess club? Does the chess club have stories to tell about taking kids off the street and turning them into math whizzes? That would be a story that some people would die to fund, right?

If you work hard to be like everyone else, you'll likely succeed at being ignored.

Question from BryanF. Janssen, Urban Green Institute:
    Seth, Great stuff, thanks. Can you say more about structuring message and word choice in terms of four different levels: Mission Statement, Elevator Speech, 5 to 10 minute download, and last but NOT least, The full fundraising Presentation and ASK...

Seth Godin:
    Probably outside my ballpark, but my best version is this: it's not about you. AT ALL. It's about me. It's about what I care about, about my story, my goals, my life. If you can tell me a story like that, I want to hear it. If you're talking to an engineer, for example, talk about the cost/benefit analysis of malaria bednets. On the other hand, if you're talking to a soccer mom, talk about the pain of losing a child...

Question from Bill P., small charity:
    Seth, can you identify a few "best practices" a small nonprofit should follow on its Web site in order to convey its mission, engage the visitor, and give volunteers and donors a reason to return? Also, what should be avoided? Thanks!

Seth Godin:
    Biggest best practice: multiple sites.

A different page for each adword campaign.

A different page for retail, for foundations, for the media.

You can't be all things to all people, and your websites are a great way to start down that path.

My book "The Big Red Fez" argues that your website ought to have exactly ONE thing you want the person to click on. ONE thing per page.

Question from Alison from Boston:
    Hi Seth - We're going to be re-doing our Web site. Can you give us the five things a good organization homepage must have? Thanks for the chat.

Seth Godin:
    Thanks Allison. See the previous note. Also, DO NOT have a technical person work on your page. Design it with markers or in photoshop.

get it approved.

THEN give it to the web guy but don't make any changes.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    A quick note about our upcoming schedule. Brian Gallagher, the president of the United Way of America is joining us this Thursday at 11 a.m. for a special online discussion about his organization's new 10-year plan and what it means for charities. This is your opportunity to hear directly from Mr. Gallagher about what these changes mean for your organization. You can join the discussion by going here:

http://philanthropy.com/live/2008/05/marketing/chat.php3

Question from Liz Craig:
    For people who may be willing to donate at a website, are they comfortable enough with credit card, or is there a segment that wants the added security of PayPal.

Thanks.

Seth Godin:
    Perfect thing to test. It'll take you 24 hours to know for sure.

Question from Lauren Romero:
    That's an interesting question from The Conservation Fund about understanding donor motivations. You have low-cost technological means of asking them, on your website. Why not do that? A simple qualitative approach would take you to that 80% answer. Do you really need to quantify the incidence of each type of motivation? I think intuition can assist there.

Seth Godin:
    Exactly. But I'd add that asking isn't as useful as watching. People lie when you ask questions. But they don't lie so much when you give them choices of outcomes. If you ask a donor to pick one of four things to earmark their funding to, you learn a lot about how they choose.

Question from Peter Panepento, Moderator:
    So many institutions have to work with boards of directors that are not familiar with many of these ideas. How can a forward-thinking executive director discreetly change the boardroom culture to get them to embrace marketing?

Seth Godin:
    Well, at the risk of promoting myself, that's why I write these books! Books (not just by me) are a great way to start someone down the intellectual conversion process. A LOT OF what I've said today sounds scary to your readers, Peter. If it was easy, they would have done it already! The hard part of a revolution is the leaping part. Leap. The other side isn't so flaky, and it's better than a slow decline.

Question from Peter Panepento:
    Is it a smart strategy for charities to pursue cause-marketing partnerships with companies -- or does this type of marketing distract from their overall message?

Seth Godin:
    The selling in distracts more than the partnership part. In other words, it's a huge organizational time sink. My vote, most of the time, is take control, don't cede it.

Question from Peter Panepento:
    Ah, control. That is a topic we haven't yet discussed here. Perhaps you can talk a bit about the fact that to spread a message virally, an organization has to give up control of its message and turn it over to its supporters.

Seth Godin:
    I'm giving the control to you, Peter, because you just said it so well!

The culture of a typical non profit is to control as much as possible and to avoid as many mistakes as possible. The culture of the successful marketer in this new era is to control as little as possible and make as many mistakes as possible.

You gotta pick!

Question from Phil King, Lutheran Hillside Village:
    We are a not-for-profit senior living community that that supports residents who outlive their resources through fundraising. We are constantly looking for ways to grow our database and also get our existing donors to give larger gifts. But my question is, when should we drop a donor from our mailing list? Say they only gave a single gift of $20 5 years ago. Do we keep "beating a dead horse" or drop them?

Seth Godin:
    It costs you money to contact them. It costs them hassle to be contacted. So call them ask. Or write to them and ask. Permission is about making promises and keeping them. What did you promise to do? Moving forward, beat no horses! Instead, deliver anticipated, personal and relevant messages to people who want them.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    This is your last chance to get Seth your question. Our time is almost up.

Question from Boston nonprofit:
    Back to the Web site issues, if I may. We love the idea of one click per page, but the bosses won't. How to convince them more links, more text, and more stuff ain't better?

Seth Godin:
     Is the point of the website to deliver a metric? If so, what metric? If you can raise the metric, you should, regardless of the tactic (within the rules). If they have a different metric in mind, they need to say what it is, out loud.

Your bosses want you to push them on this. Trust me, they do.

Question from Ashley, Large social-service nonprofit:
    Is there anything no one asked, that you're shocked we didn't ask? Or that should have been a top question?

Seth Godin:
    I'm not surprised but disappointed that a lot of the questions were "my boss won't let me" type questions.

The work you're doing is so important, so vital and so urgent that to let politics get into the way of spreading your message is just a shame.

My best guess is that this is partly the boss's fault and partly the culture. In other words, if you go do stuff, small stuff, cheap stuff, storytelling stuff and testing stuff, you not only won't get in trouble, you'll get rewarded. hurry!

Question from Tennessee Nonprofit:
    Are brochures dead?

Seth Godin:
    and buried

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    Our time is up. Thank you to those who submitted questions today. Your thoughtful queries helped make this a great discussion. We'd also like to thank Seth Godin, who took time from his very busy schedule to participate today. He is a sought-after speaker and we were lucky to have him. Thanks again.

Peter Panepento (Moderator):
    A final reminder of our upcoming schedule. United Way of America President Brian Gallagher joins us this Thursday at 11 a.m. And author and expert Allison Fine will be with us at our regular time -- next Tuesday at noon -- to talk about how nonprofit groups can more effectively engage members of the millennial generation.





Copyright © 2008 The Chronicle of Philanthropy